[Homeroast] Re : Sour Espresso

denis bordeleau bomerlo at yahoo.ca
Thu Jun 21 09:46:52 CDT 2012


re: palatal pursuit, permanent residence,  unplugged espresso machines and crema issues.   You probably all know now that this week has been declared the Official International Day of Slowness.   As Mike said so well:" There's more than one way to fix an issue, and espresso is sensitive to the combination of temperature and pressure."      I do agree and it is why, sometimes, instead of using the Rancilio  Silvia, I use the more forgiving Cuisinart M100 with thermobloc and 9 bar pressure portafilter to get a very satisfactory no brain damage  crema easily for most of the shots.     That is an easy solution between the proportional integral derivative (PID) water temperature controller , the liquid nitrogen freezer kept portafilter and the bare naked bottomless one.    Same thing with the mayonnaise: when all women on their periods have been expulsed from the house, you only have one egg left and no more oil, you declare forfeit
 and  look for the Hellman's or Kraft jar.   For the divine crema problem you can google " Jim Seven crema issue" and become one of his disciple for the necessary length of time.   For Gaggia machine pressurized portafilter, google :" shop partsguru.com No 11009765" ( $80.00)  and Slowness Day is on the site of "Official International Day of Slowness".           Thanks for reading me and may all of you have  a wonderful day.           Denis

 

________________________________
 De : Brian Kamnetz <bkamnetz at gmail.com>
À : "A list to discuss home coffee roasting. There are rules for this list, available at http://www.sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html" <homeroast at lists.sweetmariascoffee.com> 
Envoyé le : mercredi 20 juin 2012 18h04
Objet : Re: [Homeroast] Sour Espresso
  
Tom,

I like your mention of "palatal pursuit". I think that is the common
factor, and for many, that is what drives experimentation with
gadgets. I use a moka pot; I fiddle constantly with grind, water
sources, heat level,dosing ratios, etc., trying to get the fullest,
richest flavor while avoiding extracting nasty elements of the woody
matrix.

I have two espresso machines but haven't had a chance to even plug in
either on. Soon, though; in a couple months I will into a permanent
residence, my stuff will all be unpacked, and I will employ new
gadgets in the same "palatal pursuit",

Brian



On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 4:24 PM, Tom Ulmer <tom at transtate.us> wrote:
> I believe most extractions are gadget based with espresso merely a different
> venue of palatal pursuit. The parceling of budget is altogether a different
> reasoning.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: homeroast-bounces at lists.sweetmariascoffee.com
> [mailto:homeroast-bounces at lists.sweetmariascoffee.com] On Behalf Of John M.
> Howison
> Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2012 3:29 PM
> To: homeroast at lists.sweetmariascoffee.com
> Subject: [Homeroast] Sour Espresso
>
> I have enjoyed an occasional espresso for more than fifty years,
> whenever a decent espresso bar is near, BUT  . . . the volume and
> character of comment on this subject has intensified my view that many
> (not all, perhaps, but many) of the espresso-at-home buffs populating
> this list are gadget-buffs first and coffee lovers second.  Coffee
> brewed at home by any of the preferred methods approaches
> coffee-nirvana so regularly that spending big dollars and hours to
> produce a tolerable example of the espresso alternative just
> occasionally seems more toy-oriented than palate oriented.
> (One coffee-lover's thought.  Looking forward to reading alternative views.)
>
>
> On 6/20/12, homeroast-request at lists.sweetmariascoffee.com
> <homeroast-request at lists.sweetmariascoffee.com> wrote:
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>> Sweet Maria's Home Coffee Roasting "HomeRoast List" Digest
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>    1. Re: Re?:  Sour espresso taste (Bryan, Compass Coffee)
>>    2. Re: Re?:  Sour espresso taste (Jim Gundlach)
>>    3. Re: Re?: Sour espresso taste (Martin Maney)
>>    4. Re: Re?:  Sour espresso taste (Bryan, Compass Coffee)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 14:11:01 -0700 (PDT)
>> From: "Bryan, Compass Coffee" <bryan at compasscoffeeroasting.com>
>> To: "A list to discuss home coffee roasting. There are rules for this
>>       list,   available at http://www.sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html"
>>       <homeroast at lists.sweetmariascoffee.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Homeroast] Re?:  Sour espresso taste
>> Message-ID:
>>       <1340053861.74528.YahooMailNeo at web111310.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>>
>> Your equipment is clean right? ?If you have spouts on your portafilter
> make
>> sure that you are cleaning them after each session. ?Scrub the screen with
> a
>> Purocaff soaked towel after each session as well. ?Contrary to a lot of
> talk
>> out there, pulling just one shot and the letting a hot machine cool off is
>> more than enough coffee oil to turn a machine's screen rancid.
>>
>> Clean up your portafilter really well if you haven't and then give it
>> another go. ?Also, what grinder did you say you were using? ?If you did
> tell
>> us, it was long ago enough that I've forgotten.
>>
>> I'd stop basing your shot's success on the crema. ?Crema doesn't mean a
> damn
>> thing. ?Close your eyes from the time you turn on your pump until you
> drink
>> your shot. ?What does 50% crema taste like? ?75%? ?100%? ?If anything,
> crema
>> is the most unappealing flavor component of the shot.
>>
>> Push for a 16g dose, 28 seconds to a 28g yield (around 1.5 ounces). ?Stir
> in
>> the crema, let the shot sit for 3 minutes and then tip it back and
> evaluate
>> the flavor. ?Try this with that Brazil once it has hit day 7 and I bet you
>> will have a much different opinion of your espresso shots.
>>
>> Regarding the comment about 30g being a spot on shot for a 14g dose... it
>> would help to look at Counter Culture's suggested parameters before
>> correcting me. ?They recommend an 18.5g dose yielding 1.5-1.75 ounces (or
>> about 27-28g yield). ?Considering he's dosing 14-15g he should be aiming
> for
>> about 1-1.25 ounces per Counter Culture's recommended parameters.
> ?Ristretto
>> is not at all an "advanced" method of producing espresso. ?Quite the
>> contrary. ?Ristretto is much easier to coax sweet, predictable flavors
> from
>> than a normale. ?The longer you let a shot run out the more variables your
>> are letting enter the equation. ?This is why pretty much all ristretto
> shots
>> taste the same: sweet chocolate leading to a slightly salty caramel flavor
>> with a tart cherry finish, wrapped up in a syrupy mouthfeel. ?Sound
>> familiar? ?It's because this is how nearly every ristretto-uber ristretto
>> shot on the planet is going to taste. ?It has more to do with the % of
>>  solubles in the finished cup than a simple Yield/Dose=Brew ratio
> equation.
>> ?You can't evaluate based on these parameters because as your dose
> increases
>> your coffee bed depth increases as well, changing the ratio of surface
> area
>> to bed depth. ?This is why a shot on a 53mm machine will taste different
>> than a shot with the exact same parameters on a 58mm machine.
>>
>> -bry
>>
>> ________________________________
>>  From: denis bordeleau <bomerlo at yahoo.ca>
>> To: "A list to discuss home coffee roasting. There are rules for this
> list,
>> available at http://www.sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html"
>> <homeroast at lists.sweetmariascoffee.com>
>> Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 12:11 PM
>> Subject: [Homeroast] Re?:  Sour espresso taste
>>
>> Hello Mike.???? You are still looking for a good espresso shot but without
>> success.? This is normal.???? You enjoy the taste of two days since
> roasted
>> single origin Brazil beans made from an Aeropress. ? What is the
>> torrefaction degree???I told you about the fact that a paper filter can
> keep
>> the oil from the cup and some coffee drinkers like it that way.?? I made a
>> research on Google by typing:? -aeropress paper filters- and got on the
>> Aerobie Aeropress (tm) FAQ site and the metallic taste was the first
>> subject. You should try a french press or any non espresso non paper
> filter
>> method to be sure that you can enjoy a coffee with the oily elements still
>> in.??? About the crema, since we are most of us homeroasters, we are also
>> home blenders and I found it difficult myself to get nice crema with a
>> single origin materia.? Most of the time we have to roast the beans we put
>> in our espresso blends one by one to be sure that each of it will get
>> the best of itself and we may add some robusta, plus other secret
>> tricks...??????? It is very hard to resolve the equation of a good coffee
>> without? unvoluntarily adding another variable.??? At least, you should
> have
>> another taster to be sure you are not the only one to have this metallic
>> taste like we see in some common ?curable medical conditions?.? ??? So,
> find
>> another guinea pig besides your own gustatory receptors.? Check a brew
>> without paper filter.??? Keep it simple and you'll have good stew without
>> the PID.???????? Denis
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> De?: Mike Wilkens <mike.wilkens at gmail.com>
>> ??: homeroast at lists.sweetmariascoffee.com
>> Envoy? le : vendredi 15 juin 2012 14h47
>> Objet?: Re: [Homeroast] Sour espresso taste
>> ?
>> Thanks again to all who have made suggestions.? I can banish the sour
> taste
>> (sour as in sour cream) by raising temperature.? I get almost no crema
> with
>> my shots, and I'm told I should see 50% or more crema by volume once the
>> pull is finished.? I tried fresh Brazil beans today, 2 days since roasted,
>> and got almost zero crema.
>>
>> John, I think you're right to bring up pressure.? I'm told low pressure
> can
>> cause less crema, and I understand that lever machines, which use less
>> pressure are known for giving smoother shots with less crema.? I spent a
> few
>> hours experimenting with the OPV on the Gaggia, but no difference in taste
>> or crema.? Yes, I've done many experiments with the styrofoam cup!? That's
>> how I found out that pulling water was lowering the temperature
>> significantly.? That said: for all I know it could be low pressure and not
>> low temperature that was "causing" the sour taste.? There's more than one
>> way to fix an issue, and espresso is sensitive to the combination of
>> temperature and pressure.
>>
>> Yesterday I decided to give up on espresso for now.? Even when I can
> salvage
>> a shot as a cappuccino, it has an unpleasant metallic-chemical taste that
>> actually makes me feel a little sick, and sticks around as an aftertaste.?
>> The espresso, which is probably comparable to what you can get in most
>> cafes, is really not enjoyable.? I'm sure something is still wrong, but at
>> this point it looks like a PID is necessary for brew temperature, and a
>> pressure gauge is next.? It seems like there's always another problem,
>> another variable, another piece of equipment to buy with espresso.
>>
>> I brewed the Brazil in the Aeropress, and it has a surprisingly good
> taste,
>> delightful and different.? I can get good coffee out of the espresso
>> machine, but at its best it is a murky, muddy simulacrum of what I get in
>> the Aeropress.
>>
>> -Mike
>>
>>
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>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 16:05:49 -0500
>> From: Jim Gundlach <pecanjim at bellsouth.net>
>> To: "A list to discuss home coffee roasting. There are rules for this
>>       list,   available at http://www.sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html"
>>       <homeroast at lists.sweetmariascoffee.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Homeroast] Re?:  Sour espresso taste
>> Message-ID: <916D744F-76EC-402D-B35E-F02DDE947277 at bellsouth.net>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>>
>>
>> On Jun 18, 2012, at 4:11 PM, Bryan, Compass Coffee wrote:
>>
>>> I'd stop basing your shot's success on the crema.  Crema doesn't
>>> mean a damn thing.
>>
>> When I pulled my shot this morning it was topped with a good half inch
>> of crema.  But while I was grinding the coffee for that shot the knob
>> fell off my forty-three pound grinder and in the time it took me to
>> get the knob back on and turn it off it ground enough for a second
>> shot.  Well I am getting low on greens, I will order tomorrow, so I
>> decided to go ahead and use the extra ground coffee for my afternoon
>> shot.  Low and behold:  No crema.  Doesn't taste as good either.
>> Anyway a imputed  correlation based on an N of two, which should not
>> be calculated because N is less than three, a loss of crema predicts a
>> loss of flavor.
>>
>> pecan jim
>>
>> A retired professor who taught statistics to math hating students for
>> over thirty years.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 20:39:25 -0500
>> From: Martin Maney <maney at two14.net>
>> To: "A list to discuss home coffee roasting. There are rules for this
>>       list,   available at http://www.sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html"
>>       <homeroast at lists.sweetmariascoffee.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Homeroast] Re?: Sour espresso taste
>> Message-ID: <20120620013925.GB8850 at furrr.two14.net>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 04:05:49PM -0500, Jim Gundlach wrote:
>>> When I pulled my shot this morning it was topped with a good half
>>> inch of crema.  But while I was grinding the coffee ...
>>> ... so I decided to go ahead and use the extra ground coffee
>>> for my afternoon shot.  Low and behold:  No crema.  Doesn't taste as
>>> good either.  Anyway a imputed  correlation based on an N of two,
>>> which should not be calculated because N is less than three, a loss
>>> of crema predicts a loss of flavor.
>>
>> Of course, grounds that have sat for how many hours are far more likely
>> the cause of both of the changes you observed, eh?
>>
>> --
>> I must say I find television very educational.
>> The minute somebody turns it on,
>> I go to the library and read a good book. -- Groucho Marx
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 15:22:32 -0700 (PDT)
>> From: "Bryan, Compass Coffee" <bryan at compasscoffeeroasting.com>
>> To: "A list to discuss home coffee roasting. There are rules for this
>>       list,   available at http://www.sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html"
>>       <homeroast at lists.sweetmariascoffee.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Homeroast] Re?:  Sour espresso taste
>> Message-ID:
>>       <1340144552.20152.YahooMailNeo at web111311.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>>
>> So you're telling me that a shot that you ground hours before you brewed
> it
>> tasted flat and lifeless?! ?Miraculous!
>>
>> What I was getting at with that comment (as was rather obvious) was that
>> basing a shot on whether it has 10% crema or 25% crema or 100% crema, dark
>> yellow or light brown, dark flecking or tiger striping, is completely
>> useless because there aren't any absolutes. ?If I have a shot with dark
>> crema, reddish hue and great flecking and then I pour it from one vessel
> to
>> another it's going to become much lighter, with no flecking at all. ?Does
> it
>> taste worse? ?Nope, just looks different.
>>
>> Relatively fresh dry processed coffee will always give you more crema than
>> relatively fresh wet processed coffee. ?Does that mean that dry process
> will
>> always taste better than wet processed? ?Obviously not.
>>
>> The point of the email was to not focus on what the crema is doing, but
>> instead to focus on things that are ACTUALLY absolutes: weights and time.
>>
>> Can crema be a visual aid to whether your parameters were in check? ?Sure.
>> ?Should you judge a shot based on how much crema it has or what color the
>> crema is without tasting it? ?Nope.
>>
>> -bry
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>>  From: Jim Gundlach <pecanjim at bellsouth.net>
>> To: "A list to discuss home coffee roasting. There are rules for this
> list,
>> available at http://www.sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html"
>> <homeroast at lists.sweetmariascoffee.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2012 2:05 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Homeroast] Re?:  Sour espresso taste
>>
>>
>> On Jun 18, 2012, at 4:11 PM, Bryan, Compass Coffee wrote:
>>
>>> I'd stop basing your shot's success on the crema.? Crema doesn't mean a
>>> damn thing.
>>
>> When I pulled my shot this morning it was topped with a good half inch of
>> crema.? But while I was grinding the coffee for that shot the knob fell
> off
>> my forty-three pound grinder and in the time it took me to get the knob
> back
>> on and turn it off it ground enough for a second shot.? Well I am getting
>> low on greens, I will order tomorrow, so I decided to go ahead and use the
>> extra ground coffee for my afternoon shot.? Low and behold:? No crema.?
>> Doesn't taste as good either.? Anyway a imputed? correlation based on an N
>> of two, which should not be calculated because N is less than three, a
> loss
>> of crema predicts a loss of flavor.
>>
>> pecan jim
>>
>> A retired professor who taught statistics to math hating students for over
>> thirty years.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Homeroast mailing list
>> Homeroast at lists.sweetmariascoffee.com
>>
> http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmar
> iascoffee.com
>> <a href="http://www.sweetmariascoffee.com/forum/">Sweet Maria's Forum</a>
>> <a href="http://www.sweetmarias.com/library">Our new Coffee Library</a>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Homeroast mailing list
>> Homeroast at lists.sweetmariascoffee.com
>>
> http://lists.sweetmariascoffee.com/mailman/listinfo/homeroast_lists.sweetmar
> iascoffee.com
>>
>>
>> End of Homeroast Digest, Vol 53, Issue 10
>> *****************************************
>>
>
>
> --
> Contra muros, mater rubicolla
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>
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