[Homeroast] Sour Espresso

Tom Ulmer tom at transtate.us
Wed Jun 20 16:24:00 CDT 2012


I believe most extractions are gadget based with espresso merely a different
venue of palatal pursuit. The parceling of budget is altogether a different
reasoning.

-----Original Message-----
From: homeroast-bounces at lists.sweetmariascoffee.com
[mailto:homeroast-bounces at lists.sweetmariascoffee.com] On Behalf Of John M.
Howison
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2012 3:29 PM
To: homeroast at lists.sweetmariascoffee.com
Subject: [Homeroast] Sour Espresso

I have enjoyed an occasional espresso for more than fifty years,
whenever a decent espresso bar is near, BUT  . . . the volume and
character of comment on this subject has intensified my view that many
(not all, perhaps, but many) of the espresso-at-home buffs populating
this list are gadget-buffs first and coffee lovers second.  Coffee
brewed at home by any of the preferred methods approaches
coffee-nirvana so regularly that spending big dollars and hours to
produce a tolerable example of the espresso alternative just
occasionally seems more toy-oriented than palate oriented.
(One coffee-lover's thought.  Looking forward to reading alternative views.)


On 6/20/12, homeroast-request at lists.sweetmariascoffee.com
<homeroast-request at lists.sweetmariascoffee.com> wrote:
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> Sweet Maria's Home Coffee Roasting "HomeRoast List" Digest
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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: Re?:  Sour espresso taste (Bryan, Compass Coffee)
>    2. Re: Re?:  Sour espresso taste (Jim Gundlach)
>    3. Re: Re?: Sour espresso taste (Martin Maney)
>    4. Re: Re?:  Sour espresso taste (Bryan, Compass Coffee)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2012 14:11:01 -0700 (PDT)
> From: "Bryan, Compass Coffee" <bryan at compasscoffeeroasting.com>
> To: "A list to discuss home coffee roasting. There are rules for this
> 	list,	available at http://www.sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html"
> 	<homeroast at lists.sweetmariascoffee.com>
> Subject: Re: [Homeroast] Re?:  Sour espresso taste
> Message-ID:
> 	<1340053861.74528.YahooMailNeo at web111310.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> Your equipment is clean right? ?If you have spouts on your portafilter
make
> sure that you are cleaning them after each session. ?Scrub the screen with
a
> Purocaff soaked towel after each session as well. ?Contrary to a lot of
talk
> out there, pulling just one shot and the letting a hot machine cool off is
> more than enough coffee oil to turn a machine's screen rancid.
>
> Clean up your portafilter really well if you haven't and then give it
> another go. ?Also, what grinder did you say you were using? ?If you did
tell
> us, it was long ago enough that I've forgotten.
>
> I'd stop basing your shot's success on the crema. ?Crema doesn't mean a
damn
> thing. ?Close your eyes from the time you turn on your pump until you
drink
> your shot. ?What does 50% crema taste like? ?75%? ?100%? ?If anything,
crema
> is the most unappealing flavor component of the shot.
>
> Push for a 16g dose, 28 seconds to a 28g yield (around 1.5 ounces). ?Stir
in
> the crema, let the shot sit for 3 minutes and then tip it back and
evaluate
> the flavor. ?Try this with that Brazil once it has hit day 7 and I bet you
> will have a much different opinion of your espresso shots.
>
> Regarding the comment about 30g being a spot on shot for a 14g dose... it
> would help to look at Counter Culture's suggested parameters before
> correcting me. ?They recommend an 18.5g dose yielding 1.5-1.75 ounces (or
> about 27-28g yield). ?Considering he's dosing 14-15g he should be aiming
for
> about 1-1.25 ounces per Counter Culture's recommended parameters.
?Ristretto
> is not at all an "advanced" method of producing espresso. ?Quite the
> contrary. ?Ristretto is much easier to coax sweet, predictable flavors
from
> than a normale. ?The longer you let a shot run out the more variables your
> are letting enter the equation. ?This is why pretty much all ristretto
shots
> taste the same: sweet chocolate leading to a slightly salty caramel flavor
> with a tart cherry finish, wrapped up in a syrupy mouthfeel. ?Sound
> familiar? ?It's because this is how nearly every ristretto-uber ristretto
> shot on the planet is going to taste. ?It has more to do with the % of
>  solubles in the finished cup than a simple Yield/Dose=Brew ratio
equation.
> ?You can't evaluate based on these parameters because as your dose
increases
> your coffee bed depth increases as well, changing the ratio of surface
area
> to bed depth. ?This is why a shot on a 53mm machine will taste different
> than a shot with the exact same parameters on a 58mm machine.
>
> -bry
>
> ________________________________
>  From: denis bordeleau <bomerlo at yahoo.ca>
> To: "A list to discuss home coffee roasting. There are rules for this
list,
> available at http://www.sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html"
> <homeroast at lists.sweetmariascoffee.com>
> Sent: Monday, June 18, 2012 12:11 PM
> Subject: [Homeroast] Re?:  Sour espresso taste
>
> Hello Mike.???? You are still looking for a good espresso shot but without
> success.? This is normal.???? You enjoy the taste of two days since
roasted
> single origin Brazil beans made from an Aeropress. ? What is the
> torrefaction degree???I told you about the fact that a paper filter can
keep
> the oil from the cup and some coffee drinkers like it that way.?? I made a
> research on Google by typing:? -aeropress paper filters- and got on the
> Aerobie Aeropress (tm) FAQ site and the metallic taste was the first
> subject. You should try a french press or any non espresso non paper
filter
> method to be sure that you can enjoy a coffee with the oily elements still
> in.??? About the crema, since we are most of us homeroasters, we are also
> home blenders and I found it difficult myself to get nice crema with a
> single origin materia.? Most of the time we have to roast the beans we put
> in our espresso blends one by one to be sure that each of it will get
> the best of itself and we may add some robusta, plus other secret
> tricks...??????? It is very hard to resolve the equation of a good coffee
> without? unvoluntarily adding another variable.??? At least, you should
have
> another taster to be sure you are not the only one to have this metallic
> taste like we see in some common ?curable medical conditions?.? ??? So,
find
> another guinea pig besides your own gustatory receptors.? Check a brew
> without paper filter.??? Keep it simple and you'll have good stew without
> the PID.???????? Denis
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> De?: Mike Wilkens <mike.wilkens at gmail.com>
> ??: homeroast at lists.sweetmariascoffee.com
> Envoy? le : vendredi 15 juin 2012 14h47
> Objet?: Re: [Homeroast] Sour espresso taste
> ?
> Thanks again to all who have made suggestions.? I can banish the sour
taste
> (sour as in sour cream) by raising temperature.? I get almost no crema
with
> my shots, and I'm told I should see 50% or more crema by volume once the
> pull is finished.? I tried fresh Brazil beans today, 2 days since roasted,
> and got almost zero crema.
>
> John, I think you're right to bring up pressure.? I'm told low pressure
can
> cause less crema, and I understand that lever machines, which use less
> pressure are known for giving smoother shots with less crema.? I spent a
few
> hours experimenting with the OPV on the Gaggia, but no difference in taste
> or crema.? Yes, I've done many experiments with the styrofoam cup!? That's
> how I found out that pulling water was lowering the temperature
> significantly.? That said: for all I know it could be low pressure and not
> low temperature that was "causing" the sour taste.? There's more than one
> way to fix an issue, and espresso is sensitive to the combination of
> temperature and pressure.
>
> Yesterday I decided to give up on espresso for now.? Even when I can
salvage
> a shot as a cappuccino, it has an unpleasant metallic-chemical taste that
> actually makes me feel a little sick, and sticks around as an aftertaste.?
> The espresso, which is probably comparable to what you can get in most
> cafes, is really not enjoyable.? I'm sure something is still wrong, but at
> this point it looks like a PID is necessary for brew temperature, and a
> pressure gauge is next.? It seems like there's always another problem,
> another variable, another piece of equipment to buy with espresso.
>
> I brewed the Brazil in the Aeropress, and it has a surprisingly good
taste,
> delightful and different.? I can get good coffee out of the espresso
> machine, but at its best it is a murky, muddy simulacrum of what I get in
> the Aeropress.
>
> -Mike
>
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 16:05:49 -0500
> From: Jim Gundlach <pecanjim at bellsouth.net>
> To: "A list to discuss home coffee roasting. There are rules for this
> 	list,	available at http://www.sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html"
> 	<homeroast at lists.sweetmariascoffee.com>
> Subject: Re: [Homeroast] Re?:  Sour espresso taste
> Message-ID: <916D744F-76EC-402D-B35E-F02DDE947277 at bellsouth.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>
>
> On Jun 18, 2012, at 4:11 PM, Bryan, Compass Coffee wrote:
>
>> I'd stop basing your shot's success on the crema.  Crema doesn't
>> mean a damn thing.
>
> When I pulled my shot this morning it was topped with a good half inch
> of crema.  But while I was grinding the coffee for that shot the knob
> fell off my forty-three pound grinder and in the time it took me to
> get the knob back on and turn it off it ground enough for a second
> shot.  Well I am getting low on greens, I will order tomorrow, so I
> decided to go ahead and use the extra ground coffee for my afternoon
> shot.  Low and behold:  No crema.  Doesn't taste as good either.
> Anyway a imputed  correlation based on an N of two, which should not
> be calculated because N is less than three, a loss of crema predicts a
> loss of flavor.
>
> pecan jim
>
> A retired professor who taught statistics to math hating students for
> over thirty years.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 20:39:25 -0500
> From: Martin Maney <maney at two14.net>
> To: "A list to discuss home coffee roasting. There are rules for this
> 	list,	available at http://www.sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html"
> 	<homeroast at lists.sweetmariascoffee.com>
> Subject: Re: [Homeroast] Re?: Sour espresso taste
> Message-ID: <20120620013925.GB8850 at furrr.two14.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 04:05:49PM -0500, Jim Gundlach wrote:
>> When I pulled my shot this morning it was topped with a good half
>> inch of crema.  But while I was grinding the coffee ...
>> ... so I decided to go ahead and use the extra ground coffee
>> for my afternoon shot.  Low and behold:  No crema.  Doesn't taste as
>> good either.  Anyway a imputed  correlation based on an N of two,
>> which should not be calculated because N is less than three, a loss
>> of crema predicts a loss of flavor.
>
> Of course, grounds that have sat for how many hours are far more likely
> the cause of both of the changes you observed, eh?
>
> --
> I must say I find television very educational.
> The minute somebody turns it on,
> I go to the library and read a good book. -- Groucho Marx
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 15:22:32 -0700 (PDT)
> From: "Bryan, Compass Coffee" <bryan at compasscoffeeroasting.com>
> To: "A list to discuss home coffee roasting. There are rules for this
> 	list,	available at http://www.sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html"
> 	<homeroast at lists.sweetmariascoffee.com>
> Subject: Re: [Homeroast] Re?:  Sour espresso taste
> Message-ID:
> 	<1340144552.20152.YahooMailNeo at web111311.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> So you're telling me that a shot that you ground hours before you brewed
it
> tasted flat and lifeless?! ?Miraculous!
>
> What I was getting at with that comment (as was rather obvious) was that
> basing a shot on whether it has 10% crema or 25% crema or 100% crema, dark
> yellow or light brown, dark flecking or tiger striping, is completely
> useless because there aren't any absolutes. ?If I have a shot with dark
> crema, reddish hue and great flecking and then I pour it from one vessel
to
> another it's going to become much lighter, with no flecking at all. ?Does
it
> taste worse? ?Nope, just looks different.
>
> Relatively fresh dry processed coffee will always give you more crema than
> relatively fresh wet processed coffee. ?Does that mean that dry process
will
> always taste better than wet processed? ?Obviously not.
>
> The point of the email was to not focus on what the crema is doing, but
> instead to focus on things that are ACTUALLY absolutes: weights and time.
>
> Can crema be a visual aid to whether your parameters were in check? ?Sure.
> ?Should you judge a shot based on how much crema it has or what color the
> crema is without tasting it? ?Nope.
>
> -bry
>
>
> ________________________________
>  From: Jim Gundlach <pecanjim at bellsouth.net>
> To: "A list to discuss home coffee roasting. There are rules for this
list,
> available at http://www.sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html"
> <homeroast at lists.sweetmariascoffee.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2012 2:05 PM
> Subject: Re: [Homeroast] Re?:  Sour espresso taste
>
>
> On Jun 18, 2012, at 4:11 PM, Bryan, Compass Coffee wrote:
>
>> I'd stop basing your shot's success on the crema.? Crema doesn't mean a
>> damn thing.
>
> When I pulled my shot this morning it was topped with a good half inch of
> crema.? But while I was grinding the coffee for that shot the knob fell
off
> my forty-three pound grinder and in the time it took me to get the knob
back
> on and turn it off it ground enough for a second shot.? Well I am getting
> low on greens, I will order tomorrow, so I decided to go ahead and use the
> extra ground coffee for my afternoon shot.? Low and behold:? No crema.?
> Doesn't taste as good either.? Anyway a imputed? correlation based on an N
> of two, which should not be calculated because N is less than three, a
loss
> of crema predicts a loss of flavor.
>
> pecan jim
>
> A retired professor who taught statistics to math hating students for over
> thirty years.
>
> _______________________________________________
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> <a href="http://www.sweetmarias.com/library">Our new Coffee Library</a>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
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>
>
> End of Homeroast Digest, Vol 53, Issue 10
> *****************************************
>


-- 
Contra muros, mater rubicolla

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