[Homeroast] Amateurs/Professionals & Craftsmen/Artists

Joseph Robertson theotherjo at gmail.com
Sat May 1 10:50:52 CDT 2010


Ryan,
No more speculation with out a double blind test. I mean both baristas need
to be blindfolded. At least do a current local ( 50 mile radius ) taste and
observation test then report back......
Joe

On Sat, May 1, 2010 at 8:41 AM, Ryan M. Ward
<silvercro_magnon at hotmail.com>wrote:

>
> I should mention, there are some really bad baristas here locally. I tend
> to speculate that the typical Amateur is better at making coffee drinks than
> the typical professional barista, but I do so skeptically. I have a bias in
> a sense because there are not very many truely skilled baristas here locally
> that I have met. Now that I brought it up I am not really even sure that I
> want to make the assertion above.
> Now that I think of it, I don't think I believe that the typical amateur is
> better than the typical barista. I also do not believe the converse... need
> more evidence.
>
> --
> Ryan M. Ward
>
> *Note: This email was sent from a computer running Ubuntu Linux 9.10
> (Karmic Koala)
> http://www.ubuntu.com
>
> **Note: This signature was placed here by me and is not
> automatically-generated-annoying-end-of-email-spam placed here by anyone
> other than myself. I am a Linux nut and am doing my part to support open
> source software and the Linux and Ubuntu communities by getting the word out
> with each email I send, I encourage you to do the same.
>
>
>
>
> > From: silvercro_magnon at hotmail.com
> > To: homeroast at lists.sweetmariascoffee.com
> > Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 15:29:29 +0000
>  > Subject: Re: [Homeroast] Amateurs/Professionals & Craftsmen/Artists
> >
> >
> > I too question the validity of the statement: "In most cases the non paid
> person who is performing a task will have a higher competency level than a
> comparable paid person" a great example is mathematicians (also a
> pathelogical case I know). I have know many "amateur" mathematicians- many
> of whom are pretty good what they do. I am only familiar with two amateur
> mathematicians in history that ever published anything significant. your
> brain surgery example is also great, although if I ever met someone claiming
> to be an amateur brain surgeon, I would start running away very quickly!!
> >
> > ""Holding a job" in our society commonly means being paid to work for
> someone else. "
> > I am not so sure of this either.
> > First off, I looked up the word 'job' in the dictionary and the
> definition is a little vauge but did not seem to preclude working for
> oneself. I am sure the Oxford English Dictionary would hold the definitive
> answer here- I do not own a copy.
> > Speaking personally (acknowledging that I alone do not represent society
> as a whole), I agreed with Rich's definition with a slight exception (that
> being that I don't feel that being paid to do something is enough, that
> payment should be significant, and constitute a significant portion of one's
> livelihood. I would not consider someone who works in a coffee house one
> hour a week to be a professional barista, that is an amateur barista with an
> allowance).
> >
> > "I highly doubt many if any would have the skill to come close to
> matching any of the six finalists in the recent US Barista competition, all
> professionals."
> > Well, I imagine you are right, but again these people are almost
> pathological cases. Rich stated: "In most cases" This does not mean,
> amateurs are better than professionals always. It means take a random
> amateur, and a random professional and compare them. Statisitically, I doubt
> any of those six, or any of your Baristas would be chosen at random. Most
> likely a Starbucks employee would get drawn honestly. Although I think you
> do have a very valid point in that there appears to be some kind of an upper
> limit to the skill levels of amateurs that has been exceeded by the skill
> levels of professionals- considered as one large set. Its just this apparent
> exceeding of skill is being done by a very small subset of the professional
> population.
> >
> >  Think what it boils down to is interest and ambition. Amateurs make
> coffee because the are interested in coffee- this is their hobby, so they
> tend to get good at it if they approach it correctly. They start tinkering
> in the kitchen and coming up with come really cool ideas.
> > Some baristas are interested in coffee but honestly, many are just
> holding jobs(This is what I have noticed working in coffee). They know that
> if the customer does not complain, they are home free. Maybe they like
> coffee, but minimal work is sufficient for them. They have little ambition
> to advance their skill. I think this is the phenomena we are noticing.
> > Those baristas who are interested; however, have the financial support,
> and the equipment to take their skills to the next level, beyond the typical
> amateur. They can afford to make coffee all day and practice their art. Most
> of us amateurs have other professions. We get to make coffee when we get
> home from work.
> >
> > --
> > Ryan M. Ward
> >
> > *Note: This email was sent from a computer running Ubuntu Linux 9.10
> (Karmic Koala)
> > http://www.ubuntu.com
> >
> > **Note: This signature was placed here by me and is not
> automatically-generated-annoying-end-of-email-spam placed here by anyone
> other than myself. I am a Linux nut and am doing my part to support open
> source software and the Linux and Ubuntu communities by getting the word out
> with each email I send, I encourage you to do the same.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > From: mcKona at comcast.net
> > > To: homeroast at lists.sweetmariascoffee.com
> > > Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 00:45:47 -0700
> > > Subject: Re: [Homeroast] Amateurs/Professionals & Craftsmen/Artists
> > >
> > > Actually, "holds a job" is not a defining qualification of being a
> > > professional. "Holding a job" in our society commonly means being paid
> to
> > > work for someone else.
> > >
> > > Tom is most assuredly a coffee professional. Tom is self employed and
> hence
> > > does not have a "job".
> > >
> > > Most doctors are considered professionals. Many doctors are self
> employed.
> > >
> > > Most attorneys are considered professionals. Many attorneys are self
> > > employed.
> > >
> > > Etc.
> > >
> > > While I agree being a professional does not assure competence the
> statement
> > > "In most cases the non paid person who is performing a task will have a
> > > higher competency level than a comparable paid person" is baseless
> hogwash.
> > >
> > > Most people would be fail miserably performing brain surgery or
> defending
> > > themselves in court.
> > >
> > > As far as coffee is concerned I've observed and experienced a rather
> large
> > > sampling of both amateur and professional skills over the last decade.
> While
> > > I agree there are many competent and even some exceedingly excellent
> highly
> > > skilled home barista I highly doubt many if any would have the skill to
> come
> > > close to matching any of the six finalists in the recent US Barista
> > > competition, all professionals. I also highly doubt many if any would
> match
> > > the skill of even some of my baristas.
> > >
> > > Slave to the Bean Kona Kurmudgeon miKe mcKoffee
> > > www.NorwestCoffee.com <http://www.norwestcoffee.com/>
> > > URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:
> > > http://www.mckoffee.com/
> > >
> > > Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I
> must
> > > first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal
> enlightenment
> > > found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone
> before.
> > >
> > > Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archives
> > > http://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/
> > >
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: homeroast-bounces at lists.sweetmariascoffee.com
> > > > [mailto:homeroast-bounces at lists.sweetmariascoffee.com] On
> > > > Behalf Of Rich
> > > > Sent: Friday, April 30, 2010 4:28 PM
> > > > To: A list to discuss home coffee roasting. There are rules
> > > > for this list,available at
> > > > http://www.sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html
> > > > Subject: Re: [Homeroast] Amateurs/Professionals & Craftsmen/Artists
> > > >
> > > > A "professional" is simply a person who holds a job and receives
> > > > remuneration for doing it.  An amateur is unpaid.  Neither
> > > > term implies
> > > > skill and/or competence.  Look in the general press and you will see
> > > > that "professional" is used to imply skill and/or competence,
> > > > this use
> > > > of professional is incorrect.  Check your Webster Dictionary.
> > > >  One more
> > > > indication that the talking head is empty.
> > > >
> > > > In most cases the non paid person who is performing a task
> > > > will have a
> > > > higher competency level than a comparable paid person.
> > >
> > >
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