[Homeroast] Definitions and Agtron > hazmat blends of *$

Joseph Robertson theotherjo at gmail.com
Mon Mar 8 22:39:19 CST 2010

I hate it when I use the wrong word, "listing" verses "listening". Spell
check won't tell me how dumb I am. Darn.

On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 3:31 PM, Joseph Robertson <theotherjo at gmail.com>wrote:

> miKe,
> Thank you for clearing ahhh, me up on this subject. I'm sure if others are
> listing they will benefit as well. It is very easy to confuse the use of
> highly technical equipment when it comes to color values and coffee.
> JoeR
>   On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 2:22 PM, miKe mcKoffee <mcKona at comcast.net>wrote:
>> I mentioned it but seems to have been missed. To clarify the Agtron system
>> is used to measure/name/specify the roast level, as determined by the
>> "ground" coffee. Not the whole bean unground. Also the system is profile
>> independent, couldn't care less about how it got roasted. Except for
>> uniformity in the color of the grounds.
>> The Agtron Spectrophotometer system is not a tool for developing or
>> evaluating profiles, simply final roast level. However, Agtron has
>> expanded
>> to offering Coffee Roasting Control Systems. Based on Carl Staub's
>> groundbreaking "Kinetic Roasting Method," Agtron Inc. developed two
>> electronic roasting wizards that can be fit to existing roasting
>> equipment.
>> Oh, they also have a spectrophotometer specifically designed to address
>> the
>> special requirements associated with evaluating color changes relative to
>> the frying process of French Fried Potatoes. (I suspect developed at the
>> request of MickyD's?) And another one evaluating color changes during
>> tomato
>> maturation. And yet another used extensively in a large variety of food
>> products like; flours, spices, grains, nuts, cereals, sugars, snack foods,
>> baked goods, etc. They are also used for pharmaceuticals, plastics,
>> chemicals, paper and other industries.
>> Back to coffee. As far as any "Industry Standard" naming conventions with
>> any sort of associated detailed roast parameters there are none as far as
>> I
>> know. Some loosely most of the time agreed upon terminology is about it.
>> Hence you'll see meaningless (marketing) roast terms like "Bold Roast",
>> "Deep Roast", "Premium Roast" or yeah "Espresso Roast".
>> Slave to the Bean Kona Konnaisseur miKe mcKoffee
>> http://www.NorwestCoffee.com <http://www.norwestcoffee.com/>
>> URL to Rosto mods, FrankenFormer, some recipes etc:
>> http://www.mckoffee.com/
>> Ultimately the quest for Koffee Nirvana is a solitary path. To know I must
>> first not know. And in knowing know I know not. Each Personal
>> enlightenment
>> found exploring the many divergent foot steps of Those who have gone
>> before.
>> Sweet Maria's List - Searchable Archives
>> http://themeyers.org/HomeRoast/
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: homeroast-bounces at lists.sweetmariascoffee.com
>> > [mailto:homeroast-bounces at lists.sweetmariascoffee.com] On
>> > Behalf Of Ryan M. Ward
>> > Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 1:32 PM
>> > To: homeroast at lists.sweetmariascoffee.com
>> > Subject: Re: [Homeroast] hazmat blends of *$
>> >
>> >
>> > Don't get me wrong, I don't mean to suggest that we should
>> > all got out and buy Agtron systems- that would be sort of silly.
>> >
>> > I think that I should back up a bit and explain why I became
>> > interested in this topic in the first place, that may clarify
>> > where I am coming from.
>> >
>> > Personally, I am a Mathematician(Well, technically a
>> > Mathematics graduate student), which means that I am very
>> > focused on Logic and definitions. This is just how my life
>> > runs. In Mathematics, we have to take some abstract concepts
>> > and define them very clearly in a way that one can perform
>> > logical arguments on. Sometimes things that seem very obvious
>> > or intuitive are actually the hardest to define.
>> >
>> > Example (I am starting to get a little OT, I promise I will
>> > come back soon and make my point clear):
>> > Consider a collection of objects which has nothing in it.
>> > This, in set theory, is called an empty set(pretty
>> > descriptive name huh?). Well, the description above is not a
>> > very workable definition mathematically. It's hard to do math
>> > on it even though its point is rather clear, so we use a
>> > better definition:
>> >
>> > Definition: The empty set is the set of all elements which
>> > are not equal to themselves.
>> >
>> > This definition is very strange but surprisingly is very workable.
>> >
>> > Now, back to coffee. My interest in this topic arose out of
>> > the motivation I have outlined above. Has the industry
>> > established a formal definition, based in rigour and physical
>> > properties, for different roasting profiles. If such a
>> > definition exists, I am sure there are implications that
>> > trickle down to the home roaster but my original inquiry was
>> > simply whether such a definition exists. Mike then
>> > established that the industry uses color and a spectrometer
>> > to establish uniformity in roasting profiles. I assume that
>> > temperature is also controlled in this process. To summarize,
>> > I was simply asking if such a thing exists. I think we can
>> > all agree that if you throw some beans into a Behmor and
>> > roast for 2 seconds you certainly do not have a Full City
>> > roast, right? Well, this leads me to suspect that some kind
>> > of definition exists- even if a loose one.
>> >
>> > Now, regarding eggs and steak the same, equally valid
>> > question can be applied: Does an industry standard definition
>> > exist which clearly defines what an over easy egg is, or a
>> > medum rare steak is? I have no idea, when I am eating an egg
>> > am I focused on this question? No, of course not, I am eating
>> > an egg. Now, if I were to open up a high end French
>> > restaurant which caters to the egg connoisseurs, would I care
>> > then? Of course, I would be researching it like crazy, and
>> > then once I had mastered the ability to created the egg of
>> > definition, I would butcher the recipe and add my own
>> > personal signature to it. If I was feeding egg snobs, I would
>> > hate to listen to them complain about how the eggs florentine
>> > dish that I fed them wasn't even really eggs florentine
>> > because I forgot X, Y and Z. I probably would not care so
>> > much if I was having friends over though.
>> >
>> > Now, one last thought and then I will quit. I never meant to
>> > personally establish what that definition is. A formal
>> > definition can be sufficiently loose to allow for a wide
>> > range of variation. I could see a definition for an over easy
>> > egg as being an egg fried on both sides. The reason I
>> > question a color based definition with coffee roasting is
>> > that the surface can brown at a different rate than the
>> > center based on ambient temperature. This is why I feel that
>> > any definition based on color needs to at least account for
>> > temperature controls. In short, such a formal definition does
>> > not have anything to do with extreme repeatability, other
>> > than the fact that such a definition would allow "extreme
>> > repeatability" to occur should one choose.
>> > --
>> > Ryan M. Ward
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> --
> Ambassador for Specialty Coffee and palate reform.

Ambassador for Specialty Coffee and palate reform.

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