[Homeroast] City? City +? Full City?

Jim Gundlach pecanjim at bellsouth.net
Mon Feb 22 12:13:02 CST 2010


My feeling is that over roasting is a way to make a greater variety of  
coffees taste about the same.  In other words, you can sell a lot of  
cheaper coffees for more if you get people to accept over roasting as  
good.  Since the great majority of their customers will not try  
lighter roasts, Starbucks can hold a large market share in the United  
States without providing their customers the best taste experience  
from the coffees they sell.  As Sweet Maria's clearly demonstrates,  
the best coffees available are constantly changing and getting the  
best out of coffee is an ever changing experience.  And while a few  
coffees do provide unique and interesting tastes at a darker roast,  
roasting all your coffees past second crack is throwing away most of  
the great flavors.

pecan jim

p.s.  I see the Schultz book as more of a marketing tool than a good  
source of coffee knowledge.

On Feb 20, 2010, at 6:17 PM, Eliza Etzion wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> I'm new to this list (and new to home-roasting.) Nice to meet you!
>
> The book Pour Your Heart into It: How Starbucks Built a Company One  
> Cup at a
> Time, by Starbucks CEO Howard Schultz describes in detail why and  
> how they
> made their coffee choices.
>
> Schultz and his fellow co-founders were in love with espresso and  
> coffee as
> it was enjoyed in Italian espresso bars. With Starbucks, they were  
> hoping to
> recreate the romance they experienced with Italian coffee bars. The  
> Italians
> used a dark roast, and this is why the Starbucks founders believed  
> it was
> the best and most authentic.
>
> Would anyone on this list argue that a darker roast is better for  
> espresso
> and/or for milk-based coffee drinks? (Starbucks was a major player in
> popularizing lattes and other milk-based espresso drinks, so maybe a  
> dark
> roast made sense in that context?)
>
> When Starbucks first got started, they were very relatively serious  
> about
> coffee quality and authenticity. I'm sure most of us will agree that  
> they
> lost something with commercialization. Here a link to the book, for  
> those
> interested:
> http://www.amazon.com/Pour-Your-Heart-Into-Starbucks/dp/0786883561
>
> Cheers,
> Eliza
>
> On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 6:40 PM, Doug Hoople <doughoople at gmail.com>  
> wrote:
>
>> Poor Alfred Peet. He takes the fall for dark roasting, and it  
>> wasn't him.
>>
>> I was trying to figure out how the myth came about, since it seems so
>> pervasive, and I think it's pretty simple.
>>
>> The three co-founders of Starbucks, Jerry Baldwin, Zev Siegel and  
>> Gordon
>> Bowker, were originally inspired by Alfred Peet, and one or more of  
>> them
>> may
>> have even learned roasting directly from him.
>>
>> It would be an easy leap, then, to assume that they learned  
>> everything they
>> know about coffee from him.
>>
>> But it turns out that they learned to dark roast after they set up  
>> in the
>> Pacific Northwest, and Poor Mr. Peet not only had nothing to do  
>> with it,
>> but
>> he downright deplored the practice.
>>
>> Doug
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 2:53 PM, Doug Hoople <doughoople at gmail.com>  
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Ed,
>>>
>>> Thanks for this. Gillies is one of the places I'd get my coffee  
>>> when I
>> was
>>> living there in the 70s and 80s. It was before the specialty coffee
>>> revolution and they were one of the few "old-line" suppliers left.
>>>
>>> I also don't doubt that Don Schoenholt is a true authority on some
>> aspects
>>> of coffee history. His explanation of how the term "City Roast"  
>>> came into
>>> being is interesting and, possibly, might even be true.
>>>
>>> However, his explanation of the origin of Starbucks dark roast, is
>>> second-hand (he was a New Yorker describing a West Coast  
>>> phenomenon) and
>>> wrong.
>>>
>>> "One hundred years later, the Full City-roast was borrowed by the
>> original
>>> Starbuck's partner and roastmaster Gerald Baldwin to describe the  
>>> dark
>> Dutch
>>> roast that he had been taught by Alfred Peet at Peet's in  
>>> Emoryville CA."
>>>
>>> This is the received wisdom, something I had also heard and  
>>> believed, but
>>> it's false.
>>>
>>> With thanks to Starfinder Stanley, whose father was an early Peet's
>>> customer, we've been able to learn that Alfred Peet, contrary to  
>>> popular
>>> belief, was a responsible roaster whose coffee was much more popular
>> before
>>> Starbucks bought him out and brought in their dark-roast techniques.
>> Alfred
>>> Peet was said to have mourned the introduction of heavy dark  
>>> roasting as
>> the
>>> in-house standard. It's speculated that Starbucks got the  
>>> tradition of
>>> roasting that dark from the fishermen of the Pacific Northwest  
>>> fleet, but
>>> they absolutely did not learn it from Alfred Peet.
>>>
>>> Doug
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 10:04 AM, Ed Needham <beans at homeroaster.com
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> If there is one man in America who knows the true answer to this
>> question
>>>> it is Don Schoenholt of Gillies Coffee in New York City.  I won't  
>>>> go
>> into
>>>> Don's coffee pedigree, but you can either trust me on this one or  
>>>> look
>> him
>>>> up. Gillies has been roasting coffee since 1840.  Here's what Don  
>>>> says
>> about
>>>> the City, Full City, Full City +, etc., quoted from an alt.coffee  
>>>> post:
>>>>
>>>> "Newsgroups: alt.coffee
>>>> Sent: Monday, March 13, 2006 12:16 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: New York Coffee\
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Traditionally (post Civil War 19th Cent.) Coffee was roasted medium
>>>>> with the South (with the exception of New Orleans) and New England
>>>>> roasting cinnamon color, and New York roasting darker than the  
>>>>> others.
>>>>> This roast was known as "City-roast".  Later, a darker version
>>>>> emerged and it was called "Full City-roast".  One hundred years
>>>>> later, the Full City-roast was borrowed by the original Starbuck's
>>>>> partner and roastmaster Gerald Baldwin to describe the dark  
>>>>> Dutch roast
>>>>> that he had been taught by Alfred Peet at Peet's in Emoryville CA.
>>>>> Later, the publicly owned Starbucks changed the moniker to
>>>>> "Starbuck's Roast".  In New York the "City-roast", "Full
>>>>> City-roast" tradition continues, but with the quantifying of the
>>>>> specialty coffee craft and the advent and application of profile
>>>>> roasting, and colorimeter systems as Agtron roast nomenclature one
>>>>> hundred years from now may well be a number system.  The coffee  
>>>>> should
>>>>> be just as good as you have a right to expect.  This may result in
>>>>> roast names that are easier to understand.  The tradeoff will be  
>>>>> a loss
>>>>> of romance and historic lore of coffee.
>>>>>
>>>> <SNIP>
>>>>
>>>>> -i840coffee
>>>>> New York Coffeeman"
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Straight from the Coffeeman's mouth.
>>>> *********************
>>>> Ed Needham
>>>> "to absurdity and beyond!"
>>>> http://www.homeroaster.com
>>>> *********************
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John A C Despres" <
>>>> johndespres at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "A list to discuss home coffee roasting. There are rules for  
>>>> this
>>>> list,available at http://www.sweemarias.com/maillistinfo.html" <
>>>> homeroast at lists.sweetmariascoffee.com>
>>>> Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 6:02 PM
>>>> Subject: [Homeroast] City? City +? Full City?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Here are some questions that I'm wondering about.
>>>>
>>>> What do you label your degree of roast? How do you know? When do  
>>>> they
>>>> occur?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There are several different lists of when a certain degree of  
>>>> roast is
>>>> reached and they don’t match.
>>>>
>>>> Sweet Maria’s list is as follows also with pictures as reference:
>>>> City + roast at 435°F, about 25 seconds after end of 1st crack
>>>> Full City roast at 444°F about 25 seconds after 1st ends
>>>> Full City + at 454°F about 1:50 after 1st ends
>>>> http://www.sweetmarias.com/roasting-VisualGuideV2.php
>>>>
>>>> The HRO List has these divisions without temperatures but  
>>>> pictures as
>>>> reference.
>>>> Cinnamon roast just after 1st crack
>>>> New England Roast
>>>> American Roast
>>>> City Roast
>>>> Full City Roast just after 2nd crack
>>>> http://www.homeroasters.org/index.htm
>>>>
>>>> Kenneth Davids has this list in his book Home Coffee Roasting
>>>> Cinnamon roast below 400°F
>>>> New England at 400°F
>>>> American at 400-415°F
>>>> City at 415-435°F
>>>> Full City at435-445°F
>>>>
>>>> And also from Sweet Maria’s, this list at the bottom of the page
>>>> George Steinert's Degree of Roast/Temperature chart:
>>>>
>>>> Early yellow at 327°F
>>>> 1st Crack Begins at 401°F
>>>> 1st Crack Under Way at 415°F
>>>> City Roast at 426°F
>>>> City+ at 435 °F
>>>> Full City    446    °F
>>>> Full City+    454    °F
>>>> Vienna (Light French)    465    °F
>>>> http://www.sweetmarias.com/roasting-VisualGuideV2.php
>>>>
>>>> Here’s yet another site with variances: (This one is interesting  
>>>> with
>> lots
>>>> of nice, seemingly accurate descriptions)
>>>>
>>>>
>> http://www.cofei.com/categories/degree-of-roast-temperature-description.html
>>>>
>>>> My concern is communication amongst us home coffee roasters. My  
>>>> Full
>> City
>>>> +
>>>> may be your Full City. Yet your Full City may come after 2nd  
>>>> crack and
>> my
>>>> Full City is before 2nd is remotely near.
>>>>
>>>> Which labeling system do you use? Is there yet another guide you  
>>>> go by?
>>>> How
>>>> can we better communicate our roast degree to one another?
>>>>
>>>> Some of us are able to determine bean temperature while others  
>>>> know the
>>>> drum
>>>> temperature only. Stating the temperature of when your roast  
>>>> ended is of
>>>> great importance to some while it means nothing to me as there’s  
>>>> no way
>>>> for
>>>> me to know.
>>>>
>>>> All of this occurred to me this afternoon while chatting with the  
>>>> owner
>> of
>>>> a
>>>> USRC. He knows as much as possible about his roasts, while I know
>> exhaust
>>>> temperature and time. Of course, these are both usable factors; I  
>>>> can
>> base
>>>> roasts on the information and then measure the bean temperature  
>>>> with an
>> IR
>>>> thermometer immediately upon pulling the drum. That could be  
>>>> great post
>>>> roast information like recording the weight loss; there’s no way  
>>>> I can
>>>> know
>>>> it before the roast ends in my Gene Café.
>>>>
>>>> So, what do we call our roasts? How and why?
>>>>
>>>> John
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>>>
>>>
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