[Homeroast] City? City +? Full City? plus Chemex

Ed Needham beans at homeroaster.com
Sat Feb 20 22:24:52 CST 2010


I began brewing with a Chemex in '76 and still have the same equipment, and 
use it every day.  You can easily find CM-3 or CM-4 Chemex pots on Ebay for 
reasonable cost.  Stay away from the cheaper CM-3a and CM-4a versions with 
thinner, cheaper looking glass.
*********************
Ed Needham
"to absurdity and beyond!"
http://www.homeroaster.com
*********************

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <gtsteig at comcast.net>
To: "A list to discuss home coffee roasting. There are rules for this 
list,available at http://www.sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html" 
<homeroast at lists.sweetmariascoffee.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 20, 2010 8:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Homeroast] City? City +? Full City?


>
>
> I too remember Peet's roasted coffees from the mid-70's. I drank it in 
> California visiting my sister who loved Peet's. Then I began ordering his 
> coffee by mail to my home in Seattle, and I remember it just as Ed says, 
> deep, dark, rich but not burnt. I deplored his sale of Peet's to 
> Starbuck's or Starbuck's people when he did. I loved his coffee and brewed 
> it in a chemex brewer I can no longer find. Now I drink espresso almost 
> exclusively which I like to roast deep and dark but not burnt.
>
>
>
> Terry
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Ed Needham" <beans at homeroaster.com>
> To: "A list to discuss home coffee roasting. There are rules for thislist, 
> available at http://www.sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html" 
> <homeroast at lists.sweetmariascoffee.com>
> Sent: Saturday, February 20, 2010 4:41:34 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
> Subject: Re: [Homeroast] City? City +? Full City?
>
> Correction, he was (and is) a world coffee man. There is no one on the
> planet with a more comprehensive knowledge of the history of coffee than 
> Don
> Schoenholt. Anyone in the coffee trade will back me up on that. I've sat
> at his feet and heard more than my mind can fathom about beans, countries,
> farms, trade, roasts, and more. Alfred Peet and Don Schoenholt were
> friends. Don was well aware of the roasts coming out of Peets roasters.
>
> There's not a reference anywhere I could find referring to Peet as an
> advocate for light roast. He was Dutch, and his coffee was a much darker
> roast than America was used to, which was not a burnt roast but a rich, 
> full
> roast to maximize the caramels, the chocolate undertones and the nuttiness
> of a full roast. Most coffee Americans were used to was a cinnamon light
> roast, and had little of the deep roasty flavors I personally enjoy.
>
> I'm not guessing at what I'm saying either. I was there. I began a
> coffeehouse in 1977, and I was well aware of the trends in coffee at the
> time. Again, you can research it if you want, but if Don says it, I'm
> taking it to the bank.
>
> You may want to reference this article for a full picture of the coffee
> scene at the time.
> http://www.hospnews.com/images/Nov07web.pdf
>
> *********************
> Ed Needham
> "to absurdity and beyond!"
> http://www.homeroaster.com
> *********************
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Doug Hoople" <doughoople at gmail.com>
> To: "A list to discuss home coffee roasting. There are rules for this
> list,available at http://www.sweetmarias.com/maillistinfo.html"
> <homeroast at lists.sweetmariascoffee.com>
> Sent: Saturday, February 20, 2010 5:53 PM
> Subject: Re: [Homeroast] City? City +? Full City?
>
>
> Hi Ed,
>
> Thanks for this. Gillies is one of the places I'd get my coffee when I was
> living there in the 70s and 80s. It was before the specialty coffee
> revolution and they were one of the few "old-line" suppliers left.
>
> I also don't doubt that Don Schoenholt is a true authority on some aspects
> of coffee history. His explanation of how the term "City Roast" came into
> being is interesting and, possibly, might even be true.
>
> However, his explanation of the origin of Starbucks dark roast, is
> second-hand (he was a New Yorker describing a West Coast phenomenon) and
> wrong.
>
> "One hundred years later, the Full City-roast was borrowed by the original
> Starbuck's partner and roastmaster Gerald Baldwin to describe the dark 
> Dutch
> roast that he had been taught by Alfred Peet at Peet's in Emoryville CA."
>
> This is the received wisdom, something I had also heard and believed, but
> it's false.
>
> With thanks to Starfinder Stanley, whose father was an early Peet's
> customer, we've been able to learn that Alfred Peet, contrary to popular
> belief, was a responsible roaster whose coffee was much more popular 
> before
> Starbucks bought him out and brought in their dark-roast techniques. 
> Alfred
> Peet was said to have mourned the introduction of heavy dark roasting as 
> the
> in-house standard. It's speculated that Starbucks got the tradition of
> roasting that dark from the fishermen of the Pacific Northwest fleet, but
> they absolutely did not learn it from Alfred Peet.
>
> Doug
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 10:04 AM, Ed Needham <beans at homeroaster.com> 
> wrote:
>
>> If there is one man in America who knows the true answer to this question
>> it is Don Schoenholt of Gillies Coffee in New York City. I won't go into
>> Don's coffee pedigree, but you can either trust me on this one or look 
>> him
>> up. Gillies has been roasting coffee since 1840. Here's what Don says
>> about
>> the City, Full City, Full City +, etc., quoted from an alt.coffee post:
>>
>> "Newsgroups: alt.coffee
>> Sent: Monday, March 13, 2006 12:16 AM
>> Subject: Re: New York Coffee\
>>
>>
>> Traditionally (post Civil War 19th Cent.) Coffee was roasted medium
>>> with the South (with the exception of New Orleans) and New England
>>> roasting cinnamon color, and New York roasting darker than the others.
>>> This roast was known as "City-roast". Later, a darker version
>>> emerged and it was called "Full City-roast". One hundred years
>>> later, the Full City-roast was borrowed by the original Starbuck's
>>> partner and roastmaster Gerald Baldwin to describe the dark Dutch roast
>>> that he had been taught by Alfred Peet at Peet's in Emoryville CA.
>>> Later, the publicly owned Starbucks changed the moniker to
>>> "Starbuck's Roast". In New York the "City-roast", "Full
>>> City-roast" tradition continues, but with the quantifying of the
>>> specialty coffee craft and the advent and application of profile
>>> roasting, and colorimeter systems as Agtron roast nomenclature one
>>> hundred years from now may well be a number system. The coffee should
>>> be just as good as you have a right to expect. This may result in
>>> roast names that are easier to understand. The tradeoff will be a loss
>>> of romance and historic lore of coffee.
>>>
>> <SNIP>
>>
>>> -i840coffee
>>> New York Coffeeman"
>>>
>>
>> Straight from the Coffeeman's mouth.
>> *********************
>> Ed Needham
>> "to absurdity and beyond!"
>> http://www.homeroaster.com
>> *********************
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John A C Despres" <
>> johndespres at gmail.com>
>> To: "A list to discuss home coffee roasting. There are rules for this
>> list,available at http://www.sweemarias.com/maillistinfo.html" <
>> homeroast at lists.sweetmariascoffee.com>
>> Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 6:02 PM
>> Subject: [Homeroast] City? City +? Full City?
>>
>>
>>
>> Here are some questions that I'm wondering about.
>>
>> What do you label your degree of roast? How do you know? When do they
>> occur?
>>
>>
>> There are several different lists of when a certain degree of roast is
>> reached and they don’t match.
>>
>> Sweet Maria’s list is as follows also with pictures as reference:
>> City + roast at 435°F, about 25 seconds after end of 1st crack
>> Full City roast at 444°F about 25 seconds after 1st ends
>> Full City + at 454°F about 1:50 after 1st ends
>> http://www.sweetmarias.com/roasting-VisualGuideV2.php
>>
>> The HRO List has these divisions without temperatures but pictures as
>> reference.
>> Cinnamon roast just after 1st crack
>> New England Roast
>> American Roast
>> City Roast
>> Full City Roast just after 2nd crack
>> http://www.homeroasters.org/index.htm
>>
>> Kenneth Davids has this list in his book Home Coffee Roasting
>> Cinnamon roast below 400°F
>> New England at 400°F
>> American at 400-415°F
>> City at 415-435°F
>> Full City at435-445°F
>>
>> And also from Sweet Maria’s, this list at the bottom of the page
>> George Steinert's Degree of Roast/Temperature chart:
>>
>> Early yellow at 327°F
>> 1st Crack Begins at 401°F
>> 1st Crack Under Way at 415°F
>> City Roast at 426°F
>> City+ at 435 °F
>> Full City 446 °F
>> Full City+ 454 °F
>> Vienna (Light French) 465 °F
>> http://www.sweetmarias.com/roasting-VisualGuideV2.php
>>
>> Here’s yet another site with variances: (This one is interesting with 
>> lots
>> of nice, seemingly accurate descriptions)
>>
>> http://www.cofei.com/categories/degree-of-roast-temperature-description.html
>>
>> My concern is communication amongst us home coffee roasters. My Full City
>> +
>> may be your Full City. Yet your Full City may come after 2nd crack and my
>> Full City is before 2nd is remotely near.
>>
>> Which labeling system do you use? Is there yet another guide you go by?
>> How
>> can we better communicate our roast degree to one another?
>>
>> Some of us are able to determine bean temperature while others know the
>> drum
>> temperature only. Stating the temperature of when your roast ended is of
>> great importance to some while it means nothing to me as there’s no way
>> for
>> me to know.
>>
>> All of this occurred to me this afternoon while chatting with the owner 
>> of
>> a
>> USRC. He knows as much as possible about his roasts, while I know exhaust
>> temperature and time. Of course, these are both usable factors; I can 
>> base
>> roasts on the information and then measure the bean temperature with an 
>> IR
>> thermometer immediately upon pulling the drum. That could be great post
>> roast information like recording the weight loss; there’s no way I can
>> know
>> it before the roast ends in my Gene Café.
>>
>> So, what do we call our roasts? How and why?
>>
>> John
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