[Homeroast] City? City +? Full City?

Yakster yakster at gmail.com
Sat Feb 20 12:34:26 CST 2010


Ed,

Thanks for sharing, that's interesting and I like to know the historical
perspective.  It also explains why the "Anglo" roast on the Sivetz chart is
so far to the left.

The only thing I roast to cinnamon is almonds (to just into first crack).

-Chris

On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 10:04 AM, Ed Needham <beans at homeroaster.com> wrote:

> If there is one man in America who knows the true answer to this question
> it is Don Schoenholt of Gillies Coffee in New York City.  I won't go into
> Don's coffee pedigree, but you can either trust me on this one or look him
> up. Gillies has been roasting coffee since 1840.  Here's what Don says about
> the City, Full City, Full City +, etc., quoted from an alt.coffee post:
>
> "Newsgroups: alt.coffee
> Sent: Monday, March 13, 2006 12:16 AM
> Subject: Re: New York Coffee\
>
>
>  Traditionally (post Civil War 19th Cent.) Coffee was roasted medium
>> with the South (with the exception of New Orleans) and New England
>> roasting cinnamon color, and New York roasting darker than the others.
>> This roast was known as "City-roast".  Later, a darker version
>> emerged and it was called "Full City-roast".  One hundred years
>> later, the Full City-roast was borrowed by the original Starbuck's
>> partner and roastmaster Gerald Baldwin to describe the dark Dutch roast
>> that he had been taught by Alfred Peet at Peet's in Emoryville CA.
>> Later, the publicly owned Starbucks changed the moniker to
>> "Starbuck's Roast".  In New York the "City-roast", "Full
>> City-roast" tradition continues, but with the quantifying of the
>> specialty coffee craft and the advent and application of profile
>> roasting, and colorimeter systems as Agtron roast nomenclature one
>> hundred years from now may well be a number system.  The coffee should
>> be just as good as you have a right to expect.  This may result in
>> roast names that are easier to understand.  The tradeoff will be a loss
>> of romance and historic lore of coffee.
>>
> <SNIP>
>
>> -i840coffee
>> New York Coffeeman"
>>
>
> Straight from the Coffeeman's mouth.
> *********************
> Ed Needham
> "to absurdity and beyond!"
> http://www.homeroaster.com
> *********************
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John A C Despres" <
> johndespres at gmail.com>
> To: "A list to discuss home coffee roasting. There are rules for this
> list,available at http://www.sweemarias.com/maillistinfo.html" <
> homeroast at lists.sweetmariascoffee.com>
> Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 6:02 PM
> Subject: [Homeroast] City? City +? Full City?
>
>
>
> Here are some questions that I'm wondering about.
>
> What do you label your degree of roast? How do you know? When do they
> occur?
>
>
> There are several different lists of when a certain degree of roast is
> reached and they don’t match.
>
> Sweet Maria’s list is as follows also with pictures as reference:
> City + roast at 435°F, about 25 seconds after end of 1st crack
> Full City roast at 444°F about 25 seconds after 1st ends
> Full City + at 454°F about 1:50 after 1st ends
> http://www.sweetmarias.com/roasting-VisualGuideV2.php
>
> The HRO List has these divisions without temperatures but pictures as
> reference.
> Cinnamon roast just after 1st crack
> New England Roast
> American Roast
> City Roast
> Full City Roast just after 2nd crack
> http://www.homeroasters.org/index.htm
>
> Kenneth Davids has this list in his book Home Coffee Roasting
> Cinnamon roast below 400°F
> New England at 400°F
> American at 400-415°F
> City at 415-435°F
> Full City at435-445°F
>
> And also from Sweet Maria’s, this list at the bottom of the page
> George Steinert's Degree of Roast/Temperature chart:
>
> Early yellow at 327°F
> 1st Crack Begins at 401°F
> 1st Crack Under Way at 415°F
> City Roast at 426°F
> City+ at 435 °F
> Full City    446    °F
> Full City+    454    °F
> Vienna (Light French)    465    °F
> http://www.sweetmarias.com/roasting-VisualGuideV2.php
>
> Here’s yet another site with variances: (This one is interesting with lots
> of nice, seemingly accurate descriptions)
>
> http://www.cofei.com/categories/degree-of-roast-temperature-description.html
>
> My concern is communication amongst us home coffee roasters. My Full City +
> may be your Full City. Yet your Full City may come after 2nd crack and my
> Full City is before 2nd is remotely near.
>
> Which labeling system do you use? Is there yet another guide you go by? How
> can we better communicate our roast degree to one another?
>
> Some of us are able to determine bean temperature while others know the
> drum
> temperature only. Stating the temperature of when your roast ended is of
> great importance to some while it means nothing to me as there’s no way for
> me to know.
>
> All of this occurred to me this afternoon while chatting with the owner of
> a
> USRC. He knows as much as possible about his roasts, while I know exhaust
> temperature and time. Of course, these are both usable factors; I can base
> roasts on the information and then measure the bean temperature with an IR
> thermometer immediately upon pulling the drum. That could be great post
> roast information like recording the weight loss; there’s no way I can know
> it before the roast ends in my Gene Café.
>
> So, what do we call our roasts? How and why?
>
> John
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