[Homeroast] Monday Morning Cup

Joseph Robertson theotherjo at gmail.com
Thu Aug 26 00:49:21 CDT 2010


Doug,
That is my take also. I look forward to meeting you both. I hope in the most
vigorous way to meet you both someday. Maybe at a pre-arranged get together
for all the SM's listers. I know that if one was announced with enough
advanced noticed by Tom or SM's I would try my hardest to get the air fare
for the trip.
It would be a trip of the century for sure. After all the banter and fun
that has come between us Listers here.
Best to you Doug,
Joseph

On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 9:41 PM, Doug Hoople <doughoople at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Joe,
>
> RayO is a very entertaining member of our little community, and we'd be the
> poorer for his absence.
>
> While he seems to have a particular flair for writing in complete
> obliviousness while responding to my posts in particular (possibly
> intentionally, the sly dog :)), he quite often also makes very good points.
>
> Thanks.
> Doug
>
> On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 1:23 PM, Joseph Robertson <theotherjo at gmail.com
> >wrote:
>
> > Doug,
> > You and RayO both make very good points. It takes about a year or so to
> > learn to speak "RayO" but after you do it will all make sence. Seriously.
> >  I
> > have collected all the comments and posts of RayO  ;^) and in another
> year
> > or two I will be publishing a book of "The coffee world according to
> RayO"
> > Seriously the science he apply's works on more than coffee. RayO, I would
> > never do such a thing with out a clear contract with you to do it. So in
> > the
> > mean time I will sip my coffee and enjoy all your posts and reply's.
> > JR
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 10:12 AM, Doug Hoople <doughoople at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I don't have a clue what you're actually getting at here, RayO, but
> > that's
> > > nothing new. You're often getting at not much, almost always
> > > entertainingly,
> > > though.
> > >
> > > A year ago, when I was experiencing regular drawdown delays and stalls
> in
> > > my
> > > Yama vacpots with a Cory rod, Barry suggested that the answer to the
> > > problem
> > > was, in his words, "Grinder, Grinder, Grinder," a mantra we hear around
> > > here
> > > a lot.
> > >
> > > Turns out that assertion was wrong in two ways, 1) that the problem
> would
> > > go
> > > away with the introduction of a great grinder, and 2) that there was no
> > > other way of addressing the problem.
> > >
> > > Barry ran a short, but relatively conclusive, test that indicated
> > coarsely
> > > ground dark roast coffee from either a Mazzer Mini or a Cimbali Max
> > Hybrid
> > > still caused drawdown delays in a Yama vacpot with a Cory rod.
> > >
> > > That's not to say that the problem wasn't lessened by the introduction
> of
> > a
> > > "great" grinder, only that it wasn't solved outright.
> > >
> > > In the meantime, using the terminal heat burst method, I was able to
> take
> > > the output of the Baratza Virtuoso, a "good" grinder (longevity
> relative
> > to
> > > the Mazzer tanks notwithstanding), and make the problem go away
> entirely,
> > > using any grind level and any level of darkness of roast.
> > >
> > > Now it could be argued that neither the Mazzer Mini nor the Cimbali Max
> > > Hybrid are "great" grinders, but you're starting to really split hairs
> at
> > > that point. And who wants to sign up for a Robur or a Ditting in the
> > hopes
> > > that "grinder, grinder, grinder" is the whole answer, especially if the
> > > answer is actually "not really."
> > >
> > > Was my research exhaustive? No. Could it actually be called research?
> > Under
> > > the tightest definitions, no.
> > >
> > > But do I have enough information to demonstrate conclusively that I
> don't
> > > need a $3000 grinder or a kitchen-reducing tank in order to get my
> > > glass-rod
> > > vacpot to behave properly? Absolutely.
> > >
> > > So put that in your Super Jolly and grind it, RayO. :)
> > >
> > > Doug
> > >
> > > On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 8:40 PM, <raymanowen at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > "A great grinder wasn't going to solve the problem, and you helped me
> > to
> > > > prove that." [The research was a farce if you already knew the
> answer.]
> > > >
> > > > "Doesn't mean that a lousy grinder wouldn't confound the problem,
> just
> > > that
> > > > a
> > > > great grinder wasn't going to fix it."
> > > >
> > > > Congratulations! You proved a negative. Does your proof hold in every
> > > case,
> > > > or only in the case of Great Grinders from Grinders-R-Us, that you
> can
> > > hold
> > > > at arm's length in one hand?
> > > >
> > > > Maybe you proved that 2 different POS grinders are identically bad,
> so
> > > you
> > > > can't detect the difference between them.
> > > >
> > > > When two grinders both make grounds with with wild size and shape
> > > > variation,
> > > > neither has control of the particulate size, and the operator has no
> > > > control
> > > > over the brewing characteristic of grounds that resemble Martian
> > surface
> > > > rubble.
> > > >
> > > > Different size coffee particles brew and extract differently.
> Otherwise
> > > why
> > > > make small pieces out of the fairly uniform-sized beans in the first
> > > place,
> > > > and why make the grinders adjustable at all??
> > > >
> > > > The one statement that would answer both questions is ludicrous. If
> you
> > > > need
> > > > size variation in a particular brewing method or it doesn't make any
> > > > difference, you're sitting in the rong pew.
> > > >
> > > > Blade grinders generate the exact rubble you seek and they preheat
> the
> > > > grounds at no additional charge. When viewed with an inspection
> loupe,
> > > even
> > > > the grind from new Mazzer burrs is seen to vary by as much as 10:1
> > > >
> > > > The particle volume variation is 1,000:1. (r³ and all) If that
> doesn't
> > > make
> > > > any difference, *$ has your coffee. Helluva note! Happily, there
> aren't
> > > > many
> > > > fines from the new burrs. The old [new] burrs lasted 5 years before
> > they
> > > > started making fines, even though they felt very sharp. ¿Maybe
> grinding
> > > > bread flour wrecked them? No more of that, but it worked.
> > > >
> > > > If a different brew requires a different grind size, then proper
> > brewing
> > > > can't possibly use the variable rubble size of most grinders. Of
> > course,
> > > if
> > > > you like stalled brews in vacuum pots, don't change a thing. Keep
> doing
> > > > what
> > > > you've done and you'll keep getting what you got.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers, Mabuhay -RayO, aka Opa!
> > > >
> > > > Got grinder?
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